Mogae speaks his mind

| Friday July 9, 2010 00:00

 

Mmegi: How are you enjoying your retirement?

Festus Mogae: It is very busy, maybe too busy. I am enjoying it because it is busy-like, but it is just a question of time management. As you know I remain the chairperson of the AIDS Council, which meets four times a year. I remain engaged with various charitable institutions. I am patron of the Botswana Society for the Deaf where we run schools for the deaf in Ramotswa and Francistown.

I am patron of The Association of People Living With Disabilities. Barclays also runs a scholarship fund in my name which I participate in once a year, in the selection of new candidates. And I still work with other charitable organisations like the Kabelano Trust.

All these charitable activities bring in an element of fundraising, which creates a problem for me because people think that I have a lot of money to give out while in fact it is money raised in my name. Some cases of people who come here wanting me to help them financially are genuine, while others are not. The more I try to help out of my limited resources, the more they come because they think I have money.

I am also chairperson of Choppies where I am involved in charitable activities at the request of the president and they also employ people living with disabilities. All this involves a lot of work. 

At a regional level, I chair a group of former presidents who call themselves Champions for a Free Generation which includes me, former president of Mozambique, Joaquim Chissano, former president of Zambia, Kenneth Kaunda, former president of Tanzania, Benjamin Mkapa, Professor Miriam Were from Kenya, amongst others. It is an initiative by former presidents where we work with the UN systems in different countries. The representatives of the UN in different countries, that is the World Health Organisation, UNAIDs and UNDP prepare status reports for us on a country basis so that we seek audience with government at the ministerial level to discuss the next step.

What we have agreed is to introduce ourselves and seek permission to be invited as a delegation to meet the head of state, the minister of health, civil society organisations and people living with HIV/AIDS to discuss the status report and the way forward, and what we think could be done under the circumstances. In particular we request the top leadership to get involved in talking about HIV prevention and the fight against stigma. We also advocate for male circumcision. We have identified a number of drives for fighting infections and, as a SADC region, we have set the target of 2015 for no new infections and we continue to do more in this fight.

Our secretariat is based here and paid by the UN agencies that support us, including the Bill Gates Foundation and PEPFAR. Internationally, I participate in non-profit organisations like the MasterCard Foundation which is a charitable organisation assisting certain activities associated with education, especially girls, poverty alleviation and women empowerment all over the world and it is registered in Canada.

The board meets three times in New York and once in Toronto every year. I am also a member of the board of trustees for the Rhodes Scholarship, which is attainable at Oxford University, England by people who have passed with very high marks for their first degree.

I also chair a non-government organisation called The Governance Advocacy Organisation, which advocates for good governance. It is a successor organisation to the Global Coalition for Africa and it is based in Addis Ababa. Although it is an NGO, it has special links with Economic Expression of Africa, the African Development Bank, the African Union Commission in Addis Ababa and it is supported by the international private sector.

It is funded by the Pan African Institutions that founded it and asked me to chair the advisory board which consists of me, the executive heads of the three organisations, nine other prominent Africans including Mo Ibrahim, the former speaker of the South African Parliament, Dr Frene Ginwala, and Cheik Modibo Diarra, head of Microsoft in Africa, amongst others.

It advocates for regular elections, free press, free judiciary and regional integration and tolerance between religious groups, ethnic groups and countries. It is basically a pro-civil society organisation to strengthen civil society organisations because through strengthening these organisations, that is when one can strengthen democracy in a country, emphasising tolerance. Mmegi: Why have you chosen to work on these causes specifically?

Festus Mogae: Because they are good causes that I have been involved in as a senior civil servant, then later as a politician. Now that I'm in retirement I cannot say that I can't help.  I try to do what I can for the relief of suffering, more especially as some of them can overcome their disabilities. Recently, the association of the deaf were complaining that nothing was done to make them also get the HIV messages that were being communicated and that's why we ended up having someone to sign language during the news bulletin. Even that will have to be improved on a lot because they still do not understand each other. They still need more education and practice. I know because when we were moving around the country with the Botswana Society for the Deaf, we always had difficulties when someone was supposed to translate because the teachers could not. Now I hear they have been employed overnight in large numbers. I do not believe that they are very good but now I hope that they have been employed on a fulltime basis and that they will keep up to date with the language for us to understand it.

Working with these organisations brings one closer to other organisations that seek help like the one called Mother to Mother Advisory Association for mothers with children living with disabilities. 

They need to be in touch with other mothers who are going through the same challenges as them so that they do not think they are alone. Those are the projects that I am working on here at home.

I am also trying to look after the 170 cattle that I was given when I retired, excluding the ones in Ngamiland.

I have been trying to find a farm and have not been able to. I was also given 120 small stock, 10 horses excluding those in Ngamiland and two donkeys. I have borrowed two paddocks on a government farm and I have to go around looking for a farm. People think I am desperate and they charge about P4 million for plots that they were allocated 10 years ago and never developed. When you get to the site they can't tell you where it starts and where it ends.

Mmegi: Why do you think there was no winner in two years in a row?

Festus Mogae: Presidents do not retire every year and it should not be a surprise as they retire once in a while. It would not be surprising even if it were four years in a row because this is excluding those who came to power through a coup. Anyway I am not a member of the judging panel or the board and I am only saying what I know.

Here in Southern Africa, five of the countries, Botswana, Lesotho, South Africa, Namibia and Malawi have their elections on the same year. That means that if in a particular year you could have five good democratically elected presidents retiring, it means there would be one winner and there could be a period of about eight years with no winner. It is not like a competition but then again it is like the Olympics Games, which come after four years, therefore a number of years pass without any country hosting.

Mmegi: Understandable. Coming back home, what are your views about our current leadership in promoting good governance?

Festus Mogae: He is promoting good governance, isn't he? I am not saying anything about his leadership style. I am not saying anything and I am not going to say anything because I do not want to.

Mmegi: Why is that?

Festus Mogae: Just. (laughs)

Mmegi: The ruling party split amid allegations of lack of inner party democracy. What are your views about that?

Festus Mogae: I have got no opinion on that.

Mmegi: Why don't you have an opinion on that?

Festus Mogae: Because I am past tense and past tenses can't say anything about the present tense.

Mmegi: When you roped President Ian Khama into active politics, you wanted him to solve the issue of inner party factions. Do you think that he has been able to rise to the occasion as you had hoped?

Festus Mogae: It was not only factions but also other issues within the party. Why don't you wait and judge him when he leaves office because you can't judge him when he is beginning? He is in the process and he is in the right direction.

Mmegi: So you really don't want to answer anything in detail about the BDP problem?

Festus Mogae: Yes. What do you think is the problem with other parties? These things did not happen to me. How can I know about things that did not happen to me? I have told Batswana before that divided we fall and united we stand as a country, as a party and as people. All I can say is that, go and tell all the political parties to exercise patience, tolerance and Batswana to have tolerance. We are a scrambled egg, re thakathakane and we must learn to live together.

I cannot be ruling from the grave, I had my chance, I had my challenges and I responded to them the best way I knew how. You people have passed judgment and that is that.

Mmegi: Do you ever have input at a decision-making level?

Festus Mogae: No. It is not meant to be, however, yes, if there were issues that I feel strongly about, I would tender my advice. If it were sought from me with respect to such cases where I have a view I would give it. But it is not for me to be participating in decision-making because I am no longer entitled to that. The buck no longer stops with me. 

Mmegi: During your presidency, you emphasised on fiscal discipline to keep spending as low as possible. Looking at the past two years of the deficit, would you say our government is overspending or not?

Festus Mogae: Deficits are imposed on government by the global economic recession resulting from the global financial crunch. It is for the rainy day that you keep adequate levels of reserves.

It is often said that there are people who on a fine day lend you an umbrella, and on a rainy day they want their umbrella back. You have to have money for them to be willing to lend you some. We had these deficits because we could not sell our commodities, in particular, our diamonds. The result of that is we had a huge balance of payments, trade and budgetary deficit, which could only be financed by partly running down our reserves and partly borrowing. We could do either or both if we had some foreign exchange reserves.

If we had none, we would have nothing to run down and we would not have been able to borrow. The banks follow the biblical practice that unto those who have some shall be added and those with the little might be taken away.

Fiscal discipline is partly because you plan for when you have incidences like those that happened in 2008 so that you have something to fall back on, both in terms of continuing development expenditure and making sure your people do not suffer.

You should be able to borrow against what you have because if you have nothing you are a basket case and we were not. We were able to borrow because we have a supported reserve and we are a rated country in that we know we are able to manage our affairs and we would be able to pay them back. The other thing is to have fiscal discipline so that you do not waste what you have even as individuals. You plan and prioritise and get your priorities right.

Those of us who grew up poor know that in winter you had to prioritise whether you were to have school shoes or a jacket. It is about getting essential things over those that you can live without.

Mmegi: Looking at the current leadership, do you think they have that discipline and have their priorities right?

Festus Mogae: I hope so. And the Ministry of Finance and Bank of Botswana are there to advise them accordingly. As far as I am concerned education and training remain a priority. Health care and water development, power generation, physical infrastructure remain a priority. We overdid a few things and I think we yielded to pressure. We said when the main road was being built all the settlements that were three kilometres from the main road should be connected.

Then people argued that their villages should be connected because they were three kilometres from those settlements, which according to our guidelines, they were six and not three kilometres away. We changed to 10 kilometres. I do not want to mention the name of a village in the central district. I would cross that village by helicopter but I would never see a car in that village but it had a tarred road and another busy village without a tarred road with many cars. It is important to be consistent and know that something could turn out the way you do not want.

Mmegi: Recently, there has been a debate after the Health Minister revealed his support to have condoms supplied in prisons and the government's decision on that. Don't you think that the position on not supplying condoms in prisons compromises the campaign in fighting the scourge?

Festus Mogae: As the National AIDS council, we are beginning to give the benefit of doubt to those who say when people go to prisons they either commit sodomy or they are sodomised even though they are not homosexuals. But they may be homosexuals and may be using condoms and if not they may be participating in unprotected homosexual sex.

We feel that maybe there is something there especially when they come out and infect others. So you push those and say when somebody like that comes out, he should test and know their status and protect him or herself. The minister was under pressure from the rest of us to say we wanted government to put it to his colleague because this thing needs to be looked into.

Mmegi: Do you support the call to have condoms availed to prisoners?

Festus Mogae: Yes. Basically that's what I am saying to an extent; that there is this argument that it happens, and if we are serious in wanting to choke off all sources of continuing new infections, one of the areas could be the prisons.

I agree that since our emphasis is on AIDS prevention, therefore if any source or any activities or incidences are a source of infections they ought to be addressed. As members of Champions of an HIV Free Generation, we discourage governments to pass discriminatory legislation because more people will be more secretive. What is important is that more people should be encouraged to know their status and counselled to live positively with their lives as normal as possible. We have to do all we can to fight the stigma. That is why I had to write to the presidents of Senegal, Uganda, Malawi and others to discourage them from legislation of that kind and discrimination against sex workers.

I do not agree with them (homosexuals) but I do not think that they should be persecuted. For example, they sometimes wear funny clothes. I don't like that. If you are a homosexual, you are a homosexual and you should not dress in funny clothes. Just dress like others dress and we will know that you are a homosexual. I don't say I understand, and I will not pretend that I understand, because I am heterosexual.

But, to an extent, it is said to be a preference.  I personally do not think so. A preference is, for example, when you prefer to sit on a low chair or a higher chair. To sit on a table is no longer a preference. It is more like perverted taste.

All I am saying is that there should be tolerance for preferences that we do not understand if it is a preference.

Mmegi: What about helping sex workers as a way of fighting new infections?

Festus Mogae: I do not support them in using their bodies to earn a living but I do not think it is the correct use of police time to go out looking for them while there are burglars, robbers and people murdering others.

I will also agree that sex workers are a potential source of infections and therefore, to that extent, condoms must be availed to them. If they are willing to test, they must be allowed to test and know their status. I was shocked when I first visited places like Germany and I found that there were brothels were women stayed in one place to market themselves. Whether a lady is in a brothel or a party, they ought to be protected. Above all, it is a question of tolerance.

Mmegi: There is this perception that there is hidden corruption in Botswana. What are your views on that issue?

Festus Mogae: Corruption by its nature it not a public thing and you have to look into it. There are subtle ways of corruption and people have to look out for it. You might be saying it is increasing, decreasing or stable. Corruption is something that you fight and preach against in institutions. Some forms of corruption are on the borderline of corruption and theft. As you make laws there could be opportunities for corruption. There has been one case of a director involved in a conflict of interest, which is a subtle way of corruption. In this case the committee knew that the mother and son were mother and son and knew that they were related. He declared only the first time but on the technicality of the law it says at each time that the committee sits, in must consider whether they have to declare conflict of interest. It is a question of one having failed to declare according to the letter of the law, but morally, can they be said to have given you an unfair advantage if the people who were sitting on the adjudication panel were the first that were there when you declared? Will they have forgotten that you declared the first time?  

Mmegi: What are your views about declaration of assets, especially for people in political office?

Festus Mogae: I prefer declaration of assets because that is the only protection that people in political office and prominent people have against the press.   It is also the only way that could help fight corruption of people getting rich mysteriously.

People would not be surprised when someone accumulates their riches because everyone will know where those things come from. Transparency and openness is also part of good governance. With transparency you can make a wrong decision but it will not be a corrupt decision. It is a decision that is made publicly. Declaration of assets is essential.

Mmegi: Why do you think politicians seem not to want that to declare their assets?

Festus Mogae: I really do not understand why. If they had to declare their assets they cannot be prosecuted for having their properties. It is done for the future when they suddenly have three times as much soon after assuming office. It is not like when they want them to declare they are saying declare your assets so that we prosecute you. I have failed to convince my colleagues of its importance and as a protection to us.

Mmegi: The state media has been moved back to the Office of the President after having been initially moved from that office during your leadership? What do you think is the logic behind that? Don't you think it could be the current leader trying to control the media by running it closely from his office?

Festus Mogae: I do not think that it is material where the department is. If the president wanted to control the media he would control it wherever it is because under the constitution, ministers act on behalf of the president and at his pleasure.

Mmegi: During your tenure you strived to have increased access to tertiary institutions and involved the private tertiary institutions. Now we are seeing decreasing enrolments every year. Don't you think that is defeating what you wanted to achieve during your time?

Festus Mogae: That has been caused by constraints in government funds. It was always going to be the case as the government's ability to send students to tertiary institutions reduce and over time they sponsor less and less. At present it is still possible that government can sponsor more people in small proportions. In order for government to over more students, parents have to pay more for their children. It is a difficult one but one that has to be looked in the face. The ministry must be able to say we sponsored this much for this number of students and all would understand. However, increasing institutions remains necessary.

Mmegi: A lot was said about you and the former Education Minister, Jacob Nkate, during your time. What is your relationship with him?

Festus Mogae: He is just a young man who is refusing to grow up. I fought to have the Botswana University of Science and Technology built in Palapye because it is in the central part of the country. It is linked to the water pipeline. Water will not be a constraint and road transport is not a problem. There were rumours flying all over the country that I benefited P20 million from the project and it is in such cases that we need the declaration of assets to help us clear such matters. It is a pity that I did this in their interests and I had these allegations levelled against me.

Mmegi: What are your opinions about the newly formed Botswana Movement for Democracy?

Festus Mogae: It is a new party and the more the merrier. It remains to be seen what impact they will have in policy terms, whether there were just excited or if they indeed have something to offer. I am still a member of the Botswana Democratic Party. Only Christians can be born again. Life is but a walking shadow. You know... democracy evolves and the only thing I regret is the fragmentation of too many small parties. They are not able to crystallise and formulate a stand. They are not believable and they are only good for personal agendas.

Mmegi: What do you think are your biggest failures from the time of your presidency?

Festus Mogae: I failed to convince the women of Botswana that they do not have to ask to donate what is theirs. They are the majority in parties, the majority of participants at congresses and the majority of voters. The political positions are based on elections and they must begin to trust each other and elect each other. I also failed to restructure the education system towards science and technology. I believe that if we are to take advantage of this new university, the students have to be products of a science oriented system.

Mmegi: And your regrets?

Festus Mogae: I regret listening to the international community on routine testing. I wasted a lot of time arguing with the human rights lawyer, Duma Boko, over this issue. Routine testing ended up taking time to implement and when it did it was watered down. People said it was an 'opt out' system. I should have been more forceful and should have implemented it as soon as I had made the decision. Being HIV positive should no longer be like a death sentence and treatment would have been made available once the patient had tested and their condition justified that they go on treatment. Now as I give lectures around the world, I get asked why infection is still up.