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Alleged plot to assassinate some opposition members of parliament

Correspondent | Thursday February 11, 2016 12:10

 

MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MOLALE): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a statement on an ongoing matter of great public interest.

Mr Speaker, the increasing publication of unsubstantiated allegations, gross innuendo and outright disinformation by some through both traditional and new (social) media platforms should be a matter of common concern.

A stark example of this pernicious trend has been the recent publication by the Mmegi newspaper [8/1/16] of the so-called confessions of a ‘hit man’, which goes so far as to allege a conspiracy to kill a member of this House. When one goes beyond Mmegi’s screaming headline, one discovers that the sole source of their story is one certain individual, whose credibility was even doubted by the said newspaper.

Here it may be noted that Mmegi itself acknowledges the plain fact that: “Most [friends and family] interviewed attested to the fact that Kgotlhang has a chequered criminal past...” Ordinarily that should have been the end of the matter. Regrettably, however, the matter has not come to a close.

Mr Speaker, one might ask what then is the supporting evidence to justify Mmegi’s mass circulation of such extreme claims online as well as in print? Here again by the newspaper’s own admission: “Kgotlhang has no material evidence to support his hit man story (8/1/16)”...

MR NKAIGWA: On a point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. I think the Honourable Minister is out of order. He just mentioned a name of a certain Richard Kgotlhang who is not even a member of this House. So, the order is, how is Mr Richard Kgotlhang going to be responding to the allegations that he is making about him? I think he should withdraw that Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER (MR MOLATLHEGI): Honorable Minister is quoting from the Mmegi Newspaper edition of 8th January 2016 that is what he said. He is reading a quotation. That is what I heard him say.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... MR SPEAKER: Honorable Minister did you not say you are quoting from Mmegi newspaper?

MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MOLALE): I would like to repeat the paragraph I was reading Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker one might ask what then is the supporting evidence to justify Mmegi’s mass circulation of such extreme claims online as well as in print. Here again by the newspaper’s own admission and I requested your permission to quote. The newspaper’s edition of the 8th January 2016 and you gave me the permission and I opened quotes and went on to say, “Kgotlhang has no material evidence to support his hit-man story”.

MR SPEAKER: You can continue Honorable Minister. I think he is answered.

MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: On a point of order. Thank you very much Honourable Speaker. I am very surprised because the matter the Minister is referring to; I have reported the case to the police. Now I do not know if a Minister can come and make a statement on an issue which affects a Member of this Parliament who has reported the case which the case has been investigated by the police. Is it right? I mean is it right that when the matter is seized with the Botswana Police, to the Speakership you were there and you said “we cannot discuss the matter as long as the police are still investigating.” Now is it right for the Minister to come and make a statement here? That is what I want to know because you were there you were part of that discussion in that meeting, in the Speaker’s office. Is it right about my life? If the matter is still even investigated, is it right for the Minister to come and make a statement here?

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members as far as I understand the Minister can make a statement on any matter that concerns his Ministerial portfolio unless if that matter has been registered with the courts of law in Botswana. He can still make a statement so he is not out of order, he is in order.

MR MMOLOTSI: Point of order Mr Speaker. It is acceptable for Honorable Minister to bring petty talk into Parliament and we are to sit here and just listen to it?

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honorable Ministers I do not know how you grade petty talk all I know is Honorable Minister is just giving a statement about his concerns about what he read in the papers about his Ministry. Let him give his statement and you can ask him questions when he is finished, that is the procedure of this house.

MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. I was thinking maybe we could ask the Parliamentary Counsel (PC) to help answer whether the matter that is seized with the Botswana Police can be discussed in this Honorable House? If I have reported a matter to the police can that matter be discussed here in Parliament?

MR SPEAKER: Order! I have already said we are only constrained to discuss a matter only when it is before the courts and at the moment the matter is yet not before the courts, but it seems like you would prefer these words to be coming from the Parliamentary Counsel. PC please answer them.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Further procedure.

MR SPEAKER: No we are still finishing off the issue that Honorable Keorapetse raised.

ACTING PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL (MR CHIKANDA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Maybe to say that without tempering with your ruling, as you have already put it which is correct that currently the matter which is being discussed in the statement is not before the courts, and we are only constrained to discuss a matter only when it is before the courts, and at the moment the matter is yet not before the courts or we do not have information to that effect. So we may proceed and discuss the matter. Thank you.

MR MOREMI: On a point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker I would like to explain the issue of privilege of the Members; that in his course of duty Honorable Minister discovered something that worried him and he used his privilege to come to Mr Speaker’s office. The matter was then reported to the police and now Honorable Minister is casting aspersions on the veracity of what is already on the hands of the police. We are clearly on our own and confidentiality of our issues does not seem to be on Mr Speakers priority because due to privilege of membership of this house, any matter that is bothering us can be brought into Parliament by Honorable Minister as long as it is not yet investigated.

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: He is on a point of order, let him finish.

MR MOREMI: Are private matters that we bring in confidence to Mr Speaker going to be publicly discussed in Parliament just because of privilege of membership of this house?

MR SPEAKER: Order! I do not understand what Honorable Moremi is saying. I do not remember Honorable Minister reading out his statement that he got his information from Mr Speaker; he said he got it from Mmegi newspaper’s edition of the 8th of January. I do not understand why you cannot let him finish and ask him questions after.

MR MANGOLE: On a point of order. Mr Speaker, can you please remind us....

MS TSHIRELETSO: Is it your turn?

MR SPEAKER: Honorable Tshireletso point of order comes before procedure. Let him talk, your turn will come.

MR MANGOLE: Mr Speaker, I would like you to explain to the house what is the procedure of this house regarding newspapers? When it is acceptable to discuss matters from the newspapers in this house and when it is out of order to discuss them?

MR SPEAKER: I did not understand your question just be specific and stop circling the issue. I want to understand you clearly.

MR MANGOLE: There is a time when the Speakership rules that newspaper reports cannot be discussed in this House but there is a time when those reports are discussed here so we wanted you to explain to us Mr Speaker that when is it the right time to discuss newspaper reports in this House and when is it not the right time.

MR SPEAKER: Order! I do not know which reports you are making reference to Honourable Member. I clearly asked you to be specific to your matter but I still cannot understand you. What I am conforming to here is Standing Order 41.2 which read thus, ‘a Minister may make a statement; a) on some public matter for which he or she is responsible; b) to correct facts given under a statement made under paragraph 1 of this Order; c) requested under Standing Order 38.1’ (o) That is solely for when a Member of Parliament has requested the Minister to make a statement. I explained that he is making a statement in accordance to Standing order 41.2 allow him do so then ask him questions.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker...

MR SPEAKER: Wait first Honourable Molale. For the sake of progress, I am going to take two last point of orders on this matter, then we proceed.

MR NKAIGWA: Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am not satisfied. I am still adamant that Honourable Molale cannot come here and discuss Richard Kgotlhang in this House while he is not here to speak for himself. Richard Kgotlhang he is talking about was quoted in Mmegi, Honourable Molale proceeds to say that he agrees with the Mmegi newspaper that he is mad, that is my argument right there that when is he going to speak for himself that he is normal? Mr Speaker we are serious here we did not come here to play games. That is why we argue that we cannot allow Honourable Minister to proceed to talk about someone who is not in this House. How are we going to defend him if we do not know him? That is why I am saying it is wrong for the Honourable Minister to allege or make such allegations on Richard Kgotlhang who is unable to defend himself. If you allow him we are also going to mention people’s names here. We will come here and talk about Masitara who once...

MR SPEAKER: No Honourable Nkaigwa! Honourable Nkaigwa, stand and withdraw that last word now! Stand up!

MR NKAIGWA: I withdraw. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, listen, let there be peace in this House...

HONOURABLE MEMBER: The problem is you are threatening us?

MR SPEAKER: Let there be peace in the House. Honourable Molale is reading a statement in accordance with your Standing Orders. What you should be doing is to wait him to finish then ask him questions. I do not understand what the problem is. I had said I would take the last two point of orders, yours is the last one Honourable Phenyo Butale.

DR P. BUTALE: Thank you very much. I also echo the same sentiments. I do not know how people can be as insensitive as the Honourable Minister is. There is a matter that is investigated by a Government department. I do not know whether as Honourable Tawana was saying, we should just give up that Minister by his statement is informing us that there is no investigation, you are simply lying to us? You have concluded that this man is mad? I also wanted to say Honourable Speaker that Honourable Minister is talking about a person as argued before who cannot defend himself here. He is making a statement about an article which he had ample time as the Honourable Minister and Government to comment on their story and he chose not to comment. Why do you not go and answer them outside there and stop wasting our time?

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order Honourable Members! I cannot read this Standing Order again, I have already done that. I believe that you understand it. For reference, Standing Order 41.2(a)...

MR NKAIGWA: ...(Inaudible)... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nkaigwa, you will soon find yourself outside.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter)...

MR SPEAKER: You will soon find yourself outside Parliament while we are here proceeding with our business. Address me in a respectful manner please.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. The plain truth is that the newspaper has up until now failed to cite anything in support of its allegations. Yet, notwithstanding this fundamental fact, the same newspaper not only reported the matter as “Mokgware’s foiled assassination” but also has posted such allegations on YouTube and other social media, in what clearly amounts to a blatant smear campaign by the media house to tarnish the good name of Government and the country.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ... (Murmurs) ... MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members stop making noise, just listen to him I implore you.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ... (Murmurs) ...

MR SPEAKER: Order! I do not want to have to call out your names one by one.

MR MOLALE: Mr Speaker, I also note that the same Newspaper further alleges in its 8th January 2016 edition that Honourable Mokgware’s so-called assassination attempt was foiled sometime last year. If this were so, why was the matter not reported to the police at that time? I further note that the same newspaper article also falsely reports that I, along with the Honourable Minister of Defence, Justice and Security, were subsequently informed about the matter at some unspecified time and date. I can assure this House that had neither of us been actually informed about such a serious matter, we would have promptly referred it to the police. As it is, the Newspaper in question did not contact me before making its scurrilous claim.

Mr Speaker, such behaviour clearly stands in gross violation of the Botswana Press Code’s basic guidelines for ensuring accuracy in reporting, which affirms that:

“When compiling reports, media practitioners must check their facts properly, and the editors and publishers of newspapers and other media must take proper care not to publish inaccurate material. Before a media institution publishes a report, the reporter and the editor must ensure that all reasonable steps have been taken to check its accuracy. Special care must be taken to check stories that may cause harm to individuals, organisations or the public interest.”

Such absurd stories about state agencies seeking to poison Members of Parliament through Parliament’s own catering can only make us appear ridiculous in the eyes of our own public and the world.

Mr Speaker, you will recall that the Honourable Minister of Defence, Justice and Security and I, along with yourself met with the Honourable MPs Pius Mokgware and Phenyo Butale on the 27th of January 2016 to hear about their fears of some sort of plot in this regard. I must say I found it unfortunate that they chose in the first instance to take their fears to a newspaper reporter rather than to the police. The plain truth of the matter is that the police, upon hearing of these rumours, did contact the MPs.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MR SPEAKER: You only have to say it once Honourable Member. I can hear very well.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: So what should I do if he refuses to yield?

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Phenyo Butale, you only have to say it once not ten times.

DR P. BUTALE: Mr Speaker, I feel you are trying to sensor me. I am a Member of Parliament, I think you need to speak, in as much as...

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Butale you called for a point of order and so do not argue with me, continue with your point of order.

DR P. BUTALE: No, no, Mr Speaker, I think you need to...

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: He stood on a point of order; let him finish his point of order first.

DR P. BUTALE: My point of order is that I have never at any point gone to the media on a matter that I took to the Speaker. So I think we will be grossly out of order to proceed with that misinformation. I think the Honourable Minister needs to withdraw that statement with regard to the present Speaker, because it is incorrect, it is untrue and it is a fallacy like everything else that your government stands for.

MR SPEAKER: Order. Honourable Mokgware, please behave. Do not point a finger at me Honourable Mokgware. I will order you out immediately. Order Honourable Members. Please listen. Members on my left please refrain from what you are doing. If you keep that up you will find yourselves thrown out of this House. Let us speak respectfully to one another and not argue. Let us follow the norm and work together cooperatively. I was responding to Honourable Butale. Honourable Members, allow me to respond to Honourable Butale because he called for a point of order.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(murmurs)...

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members order, Honourable Ntlhaile order. Honourable Butale I was reminding you that you only need to call for a point of

order once and if you keep repeating yourself it is as if you are talking to someone with a hearing problem. A point of order is given precedence. I have asked you to allow the Minister to read his statement and I will give you the chance to respond to it.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (inaudible)...

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nkaigwa, I have told you that such words are not permitted in this House. Honourable Members please allow the Minister to finish reading his statement and I will then grant you the chance to ask him questions. He is about to finish and so please relax. Honourable Butale, now that you are in the House when the Minister finishes his statement you will be one of the people who will ask him questions. I am going to give you a chance to ask questions in accordance with Standing Order 41.3, starting with the Leader of the Opposition.

MR MOSWAANE: On a point of order Mr Speaker. I wanted to enquire why you are not taking any action against Honourable Nkaigwa when he says that the Minister is lying. Why are you so afraid of this man?

MR SPEAKER: Order, order, Honourable Member. Honourable Moswaane I should inform you that Honourable Nkaigwa is fond of saying things with his microphone switched off. He wants me to chase him out so that in the end he dares me to bring proof that he actually said that. I have told you to relax and watch the space because the time will come where Honourable Nkaigwa will answer for this. I have tried to talk to him about what he has been doing and so Honourable Moswaane do not be too worried about that.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like to continue. I further note that this particular so-called plot does not appear to have dissuaded them or anyone else with similar wild allegations from continuing to join the rest of us in benefiting from Parliament catering services on the 1st February 2016 after the Budget Speech presentation.

Mr Speaker, there would appear to be a desire on the part of some, to substitute the circulation of slander, conspiracy theories and rumour mongering as a distraction from facing up to real issues that the public are demanding. One can only hope that the ongoing trend on the part of some to promote wild conspiracy theories has not been cynically conceived as a tactic to inundate the public with falsehoods in the expectation that such untruths will remain and will stick. When the public demands answers from us as politicians, we have a moral responsibility to respond accordingly rather than insult their intelligence. This is why we in the BDP have never shied away from acknowledging when things have not gone according to our expectations. This is because, in the face of our challenges as well as triumphs, we have always appreciated the need for accountability more especially on issues that are likely to disturb the peace, are a threat to order and good governance of this country. It is only sensible to expect the Opposition to do likewise.

Mr Speaker, social media has been yet another tool used to circulate such slander. Let me here confirm that we have started taking action against those who distort social media to denigrate, slander and otherwise libel others. We cannot allow social media to degenerate into a tool of unbridled defamation. We shall therefore be tightening and enforcing our laws to protect the public without fear or favour. The guilty are therefore warned that they are not anonymous to us, as they seem to believe.

We have a Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence and Security, which, in accordance with the Law, is able to give guidance to the Directorate on Intelligence and Security (DIS) and to also act to caution them on any credible allegation of abuse. Let it be noted that neither the DIS nor its staff, including the Director General, are above the law.

By the same token... HONOURABLE MEMBERS :...( inaudible)...

MR SPEAKER: Order, order Honourable Mokgware, Honourable Butale and Honourable Bathobakae.

MR MOLALE: By the same token, Mr Speaker, let us appreciate that the DIS and its personnel, including its Director General should not be subject to constant abuse based on unsubstantiated hearsay. Let us nip this trend of character assassination by unsupported allegations in the bud. The DISS is doing a good job to protect this nation and they need to be supported, indeed commended, and I hope this House will join me in doing just that.

Mr Speaker, I do not believe I have to cite any of the various international indices that conclude that despite our political differences and economic and social challenges most of our citizens, as well as institutions, continue to uphold the values of “Botho” and “Kagisanyo” in their daily dealings with one another. We should not allow a few to maliciously undermine our collective social dignity.

Speaking on behalf of my colleague, the Honourable Minister of Defence, Justice and Security as well as on my own behalf as the Minister responsible for the DISS, I can assure each and every Member of this House that

both our doors remain open if anyone would wish to approach us about any concerns they might have about the operations of the state security agencies or any other matter of personal or public security.

In conclusion Mr Speaker, I need to reiterate the point that we should all be mature enough to appreciate our common interest in maintaining a society in which peace and the rule of law prevail. Let us therefore refrain from embracing totally unsubstantiated conspiracy theories that only serve to tarnish the good name of our country as a whole. I thank you Madam Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members. Honourable Members, in terms of Standing Order 41.3, no debate may arise on the statement made by the Minister, but I am going to allow you short questions to elucidate the statement.

MR KESUPILE (KANYE SOUTH): Thank you Mr Speaker. I just wanted the Minister to clarify to us whether the words he has been saying with such passion are an indication that he is going to give the independent print media a headache for a long time because the points he stressed showed he was going to give them a tough time not for one day, but for a long time.

Secondly, and lastly, the person you have been mentioning and considering him to be mad, do you think it is appropriate for you to consider him to be crazy in Parliament before Members of Parliament when he has no way of answering for himself with regard to your statement?

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I did not say I am going to make it tough for anybody Honourable Member, who does things accordingly. If it is about giving people a tough time, we are going to do so to those who are destructive to you and I and every Motswana who would be unable to defend themselves against them. There is a law which protects him, which protects me; it is not tormenting anyone, it is just adhering to the law.

Secondly, I did not say anything about anyone who is mentally unstable because I never use such language my brother, you raised me up so you should know me better that I know how to speak properly. I just requested permission to quote what was written in the newspaper. I will stop there Mr Speaker.

MR MANGOLE (MOCHUDI WEST): Honourable Minister, the man that you have just mentioned by name, the one you read a quote about his madness and agreeing with it, was he mad when he was a DISS agent or he started being mad after leaving the DISS?

MR MOLALE: First of all Mr Speaker, let me respond by saying the person they are talking about and trying to protect was never employed by DISS. That is a fact.

Secondly, I do not know the state of his mind but those who know him, those who talked to him are the ones who wrote that they suspected he was not well psychologically. I will stop there Mr Speaker.

MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Honourable Minister, but since this man you are talking about who seems to be bothering you very much, explained that when he was working at that place you are denying he was killing people, why are you not doing anything about it; why are the police officers not arresting him; why is nothing being done yet he is saying he killed people during DISS assignments? Why are you doing this for the first time ever?

MR MOLALE: Mr Speaker I said this person was never employed by DISS, not even for a day. Therefore when someone confesses things which are not correct we cannot follow him around. We were after an issue of the security of a Member of this House whom it was said there are threats that some people want to kill him, and that person is the one who was uttering those statements. That is why we said after some days, when the police took the matter up, that is when Honourable Mokgware said, “I was going to report after some days.” Thank you.

MR MOREMI: Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. I just wanted to ask if we are still on procedure. When the Minister started, he was on the issue of publishing malicious things as a Minister for Presidential Affairs. He is now saying the crux of the matter is the security of Honourable Mokgware. Now my question is, through the Standing Order which says a Minister can give a statement with regards to anything that concerns his Ministry, are we still in order because if it is an issue of publication and maliciousness, those we can put upon him. Now it is like we are not sure.

MR SPEAKER: Yes, we are still in order. I am still on Standing Order 41.2, I believe he is saying some things based on the questions you are asking him, he is responding to your questions. Continue asking him questions.

MR MOREMI: Point of order. No, but if you could read it Mr Speaker, that Standing Order does not say what you are saying because you explained very well that it says a Minister gives a statement concerning issues under his Ministry. He explained as he arose that the issue is with regard to the security of a member of the House. So that is an issue of Defence, Justice and Security, it is not under his office of broadcasting through print media. If he is acting it should be clear.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Minister please respond.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. MR MOREMI: Point of order. Point of order is for the Speaker, it should not be addressed by the Minister.

MR SPEAKER: Order! I am the one who is supposed to be in charge, do you know that Tawana?

MR MOREMI: But the point of order should be addressed by the Speaker not a Minister. You have to make a ruling ...(inaudible)... Standing Order!

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Moremi, why are you arguing with me? I am the one who is in charge of the House. I am saying the Minister should explain...

MR MOREMI: Point of order should be called for Mr Speaker. You should make a ruling basing on the Standing Order.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Moremi, why are you arguing with me? I am the one manning this House, I said that the Minister should explain, so what is the problem?

MR MOREMI: You are supposed to make a ruling, you are supposed to make a ruling on...

MR SPEAKER: Sit down! I am on the floor MR MOREMI: You asked me what is wrong with that, I am supposed to respond.

MR SPEAKER: Sit down!

MR MOREMI: And respond to you while I am seated?

MR SPEAKER: And switch off your microphone please.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. The Procedure that is being sought is in line with the fact that I was concerned by the protection of the Honourable Member. And the second part is that I am supposed to deal with the people’s security as well as that of the media. They are under my portfolio so I am not out of order Mr Speaker

DR P. BUTALE (GABORONE CENTRAL): Thank you very much ...

MR SPEAKER: Wait a second Honourable Butale. There is a Point of Order being requested.

MR MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST):

On a Point of Order. I am confused Mr Speaker, it appears Members can just say anything they want off record. Honourable Mmolotsi said ‘you kill people’ and now Honourable Mokgware said the same thing; ‘you kill people.’ They just say it without switching their microphones on and everyone can hear that. Is it proper procedure in this House for us to switch off our microphones and then we throw insults on the floor? Thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: I did not hear him Honourable Moswaane. And if I could hear them say that, proper action will be taken against them. I did not hear anyone say that.

DR P. BUTALE: Thank you very much. I wanted to ask Honourable Minister; you have just told us your views on this matter, and I wanted to know what the on-going investigation is about since you have already concluded. I wanted also to know; you spoke about the meeting at which I attended and Honourable Mokgware attended, is it the same meeting where civil servant in the Director General of DIS said that Honourable Members in myself and Honourable Mokgware were talking nonsense in your presence. Is this not proof enough that he is a law unto himself and you cannot say anything about him? I wanted to also comment about this issue of building a case against the media; is this not building a case against censorship of the media and censorship of the public of Botswana in terms of the laws that are coming. Are you not building a case to come and clamp down on the fundamental and foundational human right of the freedom of expression?

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Freedom of expression is not a one-sided issue. If the newspapers have and strongly believe so that they have freedom of expression, it does not mean that when I stand up here and express freely what I think about them is wrong, it is not. So, what is indicative here is that we as the Government have been quite for a long time because we are tolerant, but there comes a point where we have to say these things out and point to the fact that there are laws that have to be followed. And we are just saying be mindful of the fact that laws are there and have to be obeyed. So, freedom of expression is not a one-sided issue Honourable Butale.

Mr Speaker, the meeting that Honourable Butale is talking about is a meeting that indeed I am referring to, and the incident that he is mentioning I did take accountability for that and responsibility and I have taken an appropriate action. That is why I am mentioning here that nobody is above the law, including me. So, that is the point Mr Speaker. Thank you.

MR DAVIDS (MOCHUDI EAST): Mr Speaker, do you still deny the fact that there are hit men? Please tell me who killed Kalafatis?

Secondly Honourable Minister, the newspapers that you are trying to silence; they have been protecting you but we shall request them to report on everything that you do in the country

MR MOLALE: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the Kalafatis case but personally I have not read its judgement to come to the conclusion of giving him the response he is looking for. So I do not have information on that, but in any case he can go and read that judgement, it is in the public domain.

Point number two that you talked about...

MR MOREMI: On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I am scared because we are still out of order because the honourable member has directed a question about Kalafatis to the Honourable Minister and the Minister just said he has not read its judgement. The issue on the floor is recent but the judgement has long been passed. If he is to inform us on what happens in his Ministry regarding security matters, he then should give himself time to respond to Honourable Davids. But we just leave him without responding to him.

MR SPEAKER: No, but he has responded Honourable Member.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. The second part of Honourable David’s question; we cannot stop you from telling anybody to write maliciously against the government, we cannot stop you. All I am saying in this statement is that there is a Botswana Press code of ethics which we always advise the media to consider when they report. When you advise them to do that please do remind them to always remember the Press code of conduct. That is all we are saying, and I take that responsibility to always advise them as the Minister responsible for the media. And in my position, I cannot just let things go out of control as if there is no one heading the department. So you must know that, if you want to be slanderous and tell the media to report anyhow they want, it is up to you. You know what you will be aiming at. Thank you.

MR KGOROBA (MOGODITSHANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Before Mmegi newspaper published the Mr Kgotlhang story, did they make any effort to consult you on the matter?

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. No Honourable Member. Thank you.

MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Minister, what are the implications of your statement on a matter that has been reported to the police and we believe the police are currently seized with it? Secondly, why do you think your government has a good name while she has not given reasons why she forgave Kalafatis`s killers.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)...

MR KEORAPETSE: Why do you think your government has a good name while there are so many people who died because of extra-judicial killings, including Kalafatis whom until today, we do not know...

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. MR KEORAPETSE: ...reasons for forgiving his killers. What were they forgiven for?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is irrelevant.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Last week, either on Thursday or Friday the same matter that is being investigated was discussed in some private radio station and the reason I am standing here is to caution that we should not do that. I am only saying the procedure should be followed. So the implications of my statement are that we must ensure that the Rule of Law prevails, that is what I expect from my statement so that while the police are still investigating, we should not be talking on the other side while we are the very same people who could have gone to report to the police but the police out of their own volition, picked up this matter and started investigating. And when they approached those implicated, they said they were still going to report. I think we must talk about that and correct these things because the Rule of Law is not a preclude of some people and not the others. The rule of Law applies to all of us. So, let us not hinder the police from doing their job.

Point number two, a good name or not; it is your opinion Honourable Keorapetse, but what I was saying in my statement is that we get those accolades locally and across the globe on the observance of the Rule of Law and Good Governance. So that is a good name, whether you believe or not, that is up to you. I thank you Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: I said procedure.

MR BOKO: Thank you very much. Minister, you have repeatedly suggested that the reports in respect of which you are aggrieved, in many respects amount to a violation:

(i) of the laws of this Republic.

(ii) of the ethics of Journalism, to the extent that they flout the code.

Have you engaged any measures firstly to avail yourself of the suit of relieves that are available in respect of a complaint or complaints against the Press? Two; have you sought to invoke the laws which you claim exist, in order to curb this matter that has aggrieved you so much? Have you engaged any concrete measures in these two regards? Thank you very much.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Leader of Opposition. Starting with the last one, no, I have not sought to invoke the law. All I was saying is forewarned is forearmed. That is all I was saying. Point number two, yes there could be a suit of measures and one of them is my regular meetings with the Sub-Council of High Level Consultative Council (HLCC) on the Media which was selected by them and we do discuss these things to try and say, if any of the parties is not doing things right, let us sit down and find out how we can come up with remedies. But despite that, we still find some of these things, and it is within my duty to then remind and caution, Mr Leader of Opposition. I thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: I am taking the last three.

MR KHAN: Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Honourable Minister, I would like to try and understand. It is beyond me at the moment to understand why you would make a statement here and not call a Press Conference and just sort it out there because all you are doing is rebutting statements that were made in the newspaper. It is not anything to do here in the House. I do not know what you are trying to achieve Honourable Minister. This should have just been a statement. I find it a waste of time of this Honourable House, we should have continued with the debate before us.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank you Honourable Khan for voicing your opinion and as far as I am concerned, it is an opinion, not even a learned opinion. Mr Speaker, I brought this statement here to Parliament because in the allegations that were made, it was being referred to as using Parliamentary Catering Services to poison some Members of this House. I wanted to come here and allay the fears that there can never be such poisoning from the Parliamentary Catering Services. So it is very clear that it is a relevant statement that I made here, it is not a waste of time. It is about your own security Honourable Khan. I thank you Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MS BATHOBAKAE: Honourable Speaker, I heard the Minister saying that we should trust the DIS and support them. Honourable Minister, how can we trust them if they can hire mad people to do cruel acts of killing people? And even when they can say Members of Parliament are talking nonsense? Is this right when we pay people with our taxes and they make people suffer like this?

MR MOSWAANE: Point of order.

MR SPEAKER: You know what; I am left with one Member before we close this matter. Honourable Minister, respond.

MR MOSWAANE: Did you not hear point of order Sir? You said we should say it once.

MR SPEAKER: Do not speak too close to the microphone. Wait; there is a point of order.

MR MOSWAANE: Point of order. Mr Speaker, this issue has attracted unnecessary comments but you are just too patient. Even the Kalafatis issue is being debated. Mr Speaker, caution the Honourable Members about the use of a statement. Honourable Bathobakae boldly said “the DIS is hiring people who kill people” while it has been explained that it has never hired anyone to do. I wonder what is happening.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Bathobakae, Order! Honourable Members, take it easy, I will give you an opportunity to comment on this issue. We are left with one person and we will be continuing with the business of the day. I am patient, I allotted you that time. Afterwards, we move on.

MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. I said earlier on that DIS employs people who are fit. I cannot use those other words which are used and I do not know anything about them.

Secondly, I said if there is an issue that can cause chaos whether it has happened or you see that it is something you need to accept, I said as a politician, you have to accept it. I had no fear in doing that. If there is any possible consequences that will follow on the acceptance of what I admit to have happened, then so be it. Yes, I did say I take accountability and responsibility for those utterances, but I did caution strongly and in the presence of all those who were there including the Honourable Members that, that should never happen again. This is because of the following;

  1. (i)  It is against the procedures of public service.
  2. (ii)  It is against the procedures of etiquette because we were at the Speaker’s Chambers. The Speaker was the most senior person of all of us there and therefore I cautioned that should that happen again,

I am going to take drastic action and I meant it. I thank you Mr Speaker.

MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: Thank you Honourable Speaker. Honourable Minister, I thought I heard you very well saying Honourable Butale and I ran to the newspapers before we came to you or to the Speakers. I want you to produce evidence that I went to the newspapers and discussed this issue with them before I came to you.

Secondly, I need you to confirm to this House that when I approached the Speaker on the concerns I had, you said this matter was being investigated by the Police and therefore it could not be discussed because whatever we may discuss may end up as part of the evidence if there is a case. You also said your name and Minister Kgathi’s were implicated in the case and the man you were talking about mentioned you therefore we should not discuss the matter. Now I want to know if the statement you have just released will it not be implicated in the evidence.

The last one is that, earlier you mentioned that you are the Acting Minister of Defence, Justice and Security, how far are the Police investigations because they report to you and what was the conclusion?

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mokgware that was the last question.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. On the first question; it is indeed true Honourable Mokgware that before you went to report to the Police or elsewhere, you went to the newspapers. This is a statement that was said by you.

Point number two... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. MR MOLALE: Let me finish... MR SPEAKER: Wait Honourable Minister.

MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: On a point of order. Mr Speaker, Honourable Kgathi and Honourable Butale were also present. It is very unfortunate that the minister is uttering a false statement. If he says that is what I said, let him produce evidence right now. You were there and Honourable Butale was also present. I have never said that. I would not have come here and enquire about that issue. I wonder what should be done in a case where the Minister is not telling the truth of which you are a witness.

MR SPEAKER: I hear you Honourable Mokgware. Honourable Minister, correct that statement.

MR MOLALE: Mr Speaker, I do not know how to correct what I have said because it is what was said in that meeting. Honourable Mokgware said he told someone to wait while he called for some people. I am talking about this issue, at that time. So, it is hard for me to say...

DR P. BUTALE: On a point of order. I think Honourable Speaker we are now turning this House into a mockery.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is a circus.

DR P. BUTALE: It is a circus. I think Honourable Ministers need to know that truth telling is very important. I was in that meeting and the Honourable Minister knows very well that he is not telling the truth. I think we cannot sit here and listen to the likes of Honourable Maele saying we will attend to this matter outside. We are serious here. We are serious and we are not coming here to entertain such ...

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Butale, order!

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MR SPEAKER: Order! DR P. BUTALE: I am standing on a point of order.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Of course! I am saying sit down. I am also rising on a point of order.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Maele, Honourable Butale...

DR P. BUTALE: Honestly, I think we need to take this House seriously. This man cannot come here and tell an untruth.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Butale, sit down Honourable Member. Try to calm down. Honourable Maele, do not do that.

MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR MAELE): He is disrespecting me ...(Inaudible)...

MR SPEAKER: Do you hear yourself? MR MAELE: ...(Inaudible)... MR SPEAKER: Minister Maele, no, no. Order! Order!

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)...

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Butale, I said calm down. Do you know that it is not right to be that overly emotional? Do not say those things. No! Try to calm down so that we conclude this matter in peace. I gave the Minister a chance to correct his statement. I was still listening to him when you started arguing. Honourable

Butale and Honourable Maele, I am warning you for the last time.

MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker.

MR MAJAGA: Point of order.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Majaga, I said enough with point of orders.

MR MAJAGA: I wanted to assist you Mr Speaker...

MR SPEAKER: Since you want to assist me, let mehear what you have to say.

MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Let us look at Standing Order 51.1, “a Member shall speak standing and shall address his or her observations to the Speaker.”

This is continuing, people do not respect you. If we go to Standing Order 59 of decision of the Chair it says, “The Speaker shall be responsible for the observation of the rules of the order. His or her decision on point of order shall be final.” I have however realised that this is persistent and I do not know what could be the problem.

MR SPEAKER: I agree with you Honourable Majaga people do not abide by this Standing Order and they will soon get into trouble. You advised well Honourable Member.

MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR MAELE): On a point of order. Mr Speaker Honourable Butale stood up, switched his mike (microphone) and said the likes of Maele are not serious in Parliament. I never switched on the mike and mentioned that I am not serious in this Parliament. You are just going to reprimand me and not say a word to him; I am asking him to withdraw those words.

MR SPEAKER: I reprimanded both of you, whether you had switched on or not I talked to you about what you are doing in Parliament. So I am not going to talk to any of you again and I think you and Honourable Butale heard me.

MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MOLALE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker I was asking you to...

MR SPEAKER: There is another point of order.

MR MOREMI: On a point of order. Mr Speaker my point of order is that in Honourable Mokgware’s plea, you directed Honourable Molale to make a correction, he should either submit the evidence or withdraw the allegation that he made. He is now saying he is not going to withdraw and it is clear that he is refusing to adhere to the Speaker’s ruling. Are we in order if the Speaker’s decision of point of order on Honourable Mokgware’s issue is not followed?

MR SPEAKER: No Honourable Minister has not concluded his answer. Let me wait for him to finish that is when I will hear if he is going to correct and say what was spoken by Honourable Mokgware and Honourable Butale. I am listening.

MR MOSWAANE: On a point of order. Mr Speaker we are at your mercy. If somebody, “you are not serious,” to a Member, it is a serious defamation of character. I am therefore seeking your protection Mr Speaker. Honourable Member is a Minister and a Member of Parliament and there is no how somebody could just talk to him like that for purposes of recording and going to the papers to say “I told him.” This is not right Honourable Member as it tarnishes our names, ah!

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members protect yourselves by recognising that you are elders here at work, you should respect each other. I will not revisit Honourable Butale and Honourable Maele’s issue. He knows what he said to Honourable Butale when his mic was off. I heard him from here. I am not part of it, we are continuing. Honourable Minister conclude your debate.

MR MOLALE: I thank you Mr Speaker...

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order!

MR MOLALE: What are you scared of? Let me finish.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister sit down I am left with one minute to conclude this matter.

MR NTLHAILE: On a point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am not at ease, I am really scared. This is so because I understand that in the issue that was presented to us, we are told there were three people and the Speaker’s name is also mentioned...

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Ntlhaile the time that I had allocated for Minister’s statement has collapsed. So we are continuing with the budget.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MR SPEAKER: I am on my feet Honourable Members and I have finished what I said no one should challenge that decision.

MAJ. GEN MOKGWARE: On a point of procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. My name has been tarnished even if you have ruled that the issue be closed before the Minister could withdraw what he said. If that is the case then what should be done because the records will stay like that?

MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members I said I am not going back to that statement. We are no longer going to talk about it, we are proceeding. Whoever is complaining will meet with me at the Speaker’s Chambers. I am done with it here.